I must say this is disheartening. When otherwise fairly clear minds succumb to the pressure of “maybe you overstepped the mark” when they spend more time than they should reflecting on their own actions, rather than the realities that led up to those actions.
It is one thing entirely to apologise to yourself by saying “I should be above that” for uttering a thoughtless flippancy. It is quite another to then guilt yourself out and apologise to the target, when that target has displayed nothing other than capricious malice in their behaviour, has personally shame targeted you and been a disruptive nuisance in your real life circle of existence. To glibly pop out that you are glad to see the back of them – on Twitter of all things – is hardly grounds for mortification and penance.
It is a testament to the weight of the leaden blanket of guilt that the Watsonistas suffocate the community with, with their catastrophised hyperboles of oppression and martyr’s suffering at the jackbooted heels of the concocted demons that persecute them. It works and they are encouraged by the success of the strategy to keep building on the mythology of victimisation to make it all work better next time. In business language, this is called continuous improvement.
So it is sad to see Adrienne of Skepticasm succumb to this relentless pressure and fantasist nonsense that Watson, despite her Caligula-like wanton vandalism of the various secular communities, is somehow an innocent victim of unfair circumstance in a cruel and callous world – and after penning a series of excellent critiques of all things Skepchick to suddenly be overcome with remorse and empathy for Becky’s feelings. Honey, that’s precisely how they want you to feel. In chess, it’s called checkmate.
Adrienne, this is why I chose the word disheartening with care – they have succeeded in knocking the wind out of your sails…
The remorseful missive can be found here, with the core (at least my dumb boy misreading of it) extracted here –
Rebecca Watson is not a bitch.
[…]Rebecca’s not a bitch. She’s a human dealing with duress poorly. Stop with the name calling.
Humans are predictable. If they’re doing something out of the ordinary, something’s up. There’s never a rational reason to throw a tantrum. If you see someone throwing a tantrum, that means they’re not thinking rationally and something is wrong. That should be a red flag to you to back off, not take her down to the ground, punch her on the back and yell at her broken, sobbing form that you’re tired of her shit. If her tantrum is misplaced, then it’s misplaced. Acknowledge the pain it indicates. She’s hurting right now. Period. […] – link to full post
Which is all well and good. A mature and sensible way of approaching this disaster. It depends, however, entirely on a leap of faith – that Becky is a rational human being capable of empathising in return, capable of viewing reality beyond “it’s all about me!” and capable of one day waking up and feeling remorse for all the needless bad blood she has so cynically instigated without consideration for consequence.
Becky fails on all counts. I don’t just say that because of the, probably unhealthy1, amount of time I have spent analysing this idiocy, but also because of the number of people I know within the skeptic community that have known Becky for many, many years and have similarly expressed their distaste at her selfish and narcissistic antics from the very start. To quote a chat with long time skeptic Sacha (a “gender traitor” and regular commenter here), verbatim and with permission, regarding this specific blog entry from Adrienne –
what she [Adrienne] does not get is that Becky
A: has always been this way
B: she was a complete cunt when i spoke to her on her wedding day, so this “going through a bad time” is bullshit
C: she has sycophants telling her how great she is on a constant basis and it has gone to her head
D: she needs to hear more dissenting opinion especially from skeptic women.
That will get to her more than the men
she can write off the men as sexist in her head
not so easy to do with bright, critical thinking women
more need to tell her the way it is
What Sacha has been repeating to me from the very start is that Watson’s contemptuous attitude to other, non-celebrity, females in the movement – behaviour that actually does live up to the dictionary definition of misogyny – has been there since before Skepchick became a web entity. For Adrienne to excuse this behaviour on the grounds that it may, perhaps, be a side effect of recent personal problems, while well meaning, is quite simply wrong. Becky has been a bundle of self-serving manipulation and hatred since probably well before Adrienne was even aware of the movement, and certainly well before that “marriage” thing blossomed and soured. This is not emotional turbulence, this is the essence of the being. Let’s catalogue this –
The recent insult that Becky paid to Adrienne, that set off a chain reaction culminating in the blogged expressions of regret, was also a double whammy of contempt I’m not sure Adrienne fully appreciates. Not only did Watson attempt to create a directly targeted public shaming of her, she did so while also falsely creating the impression that she was unaware of who Adrienne was – she was just a worthless and inconsequential “randomly” selected example, just the first piece of dog shit she happened to tread in when she stepped outside…
It was nothing of the sort – it was premeditated payback. It was slut-shaming, Watsonista style. These uppity, immodest bitches that don’t toe the line and want to express their own opinions. Traitors. Collaborators. Rape apologists. Sluts. Watson was fully aware of who Adrienne was – she just preferred to create the illusion she didn’t to add the “worthless” factor to the slur.
This is the same slut-shaming game Watson played out against Stef McGraw, Rose St. Clair, Paula Kirby and any other gender traitors not of the faith that speak out of turn. This vile character assassination shtick is, of course, turned into a game of viler oneupmanship by other Watsonistas, finding its zenith perhaps with Ophelia Benson and her Iranian cleric-like crusade against Abbie Smith and ERV…
noun: hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women
Then from the specific to the generic. As for Becky’s oft regurgitated “I get rape emails!” whine. Really. Wake up and smell the sewer Becky. This is the internet. If you post a Youtube vid claiming Abyssinian cats are superior to Persians, and it gets wide enough circulation, you will get death threats. Similarly, if you post violated nun sob stories and squeal about the Patriarchal Conspiracy™, you will most likely get rape threats. It is raw Pollyannaist stupidity to express surprise when you do. This is the price you pay for freedom – it means other people also have the right to be mindless, vindictive assholes, not just you.
The reality is that there is a constant representation of malicious, sociopathic elements wherever you go online, other than the barricaded cloisters of the Baboon Board2 that are censored with an iron fist. To imply loons only target Becky is exceptionalist special pleading. A cheap play for sympathy in an already corrupt and unfairly stacked game. It is a deliberate pantomime from Becky to milk cheap emotional response from the uncritical and no more – as a professional communicator, she knows this and exploits it to the extreme. Watson knowingly and unapologetically plays in Dr. Phil territory – and the Watsonistas just lap it all up.
This is all an exercise to take a generic and non-specific problem that exists across the entirety of the ‘net, and repackage it into a highly specific and localised problem only affecting Becky. In short, it is a stage magicians deception and nothing more. Becky, as the old saying goes – if you can’t stand the heat, get the fuck out of the kitchen. Just spare us the whining. I stopped even counting death threats I have received3 over time way back in the ’90s. Get over it. You are not that special.
Now back to the more personal – and some things I can at least partially agree on with Adrienne. She continues further in the same post –
…I don’t want to even know what goes on in her personal life, for the same reason it makes me uncomfortable to imagine my theory professor taking a piss… I started to catch a glimpse when someone linked me to a rather vitriolic post about her that contained all sorts of intimate details and speculation from her personal life that made me sick to my stomach… It’s not fun to read. I don’t enjoy reading about another human’s misfortune and I find it especially painful to watch someone plaster her very, very personal history (probably rumors) and grotesque speculation (solidly bullshit) all over the ‘net. It’s cruel and unnecessary. Skeptics should know better. Humanists should know better. ADULTS should know better…
While I need to call bollocks on the outright denial of schadenfreude (c’mon Adrienne, what is 90% of comedy if not laughing at the misfortunes of others?), I can agree with the rest – the private should remain private, and as far as speculation goes, always evidence or STFU. This is just basic, no-brainer, common decency and respect that no one should need explained to them.
But… again there is a leap of faith involved. One needs to assume that Watson and her acolytes share this sense of common decency. Well, they don’t Adrienne. There isn’t an ethical drop of blood in any of their veins. They have constructed their own quasi-religious moral dualism, driven a wedge into the earth to cement the division between “us” and “them” and proceeded to redefine good and evil in terms of their own, One True ideology.
Too bad for you if you’re one of “them”. All normal ethical considerations cease to have any substance. You are, for want of a better term, shit. And you have been personally shown that by their Watsonista slut-shaming of you.
In fact, the more you read of their various blog and forum outpourings and see their spoken diatribes, the more you come to realise that their entire vocabulary is the language of dehumanisation of the other – in substance no different to that of any other personality cult that’s preceded it. From Goebbels to Fred Phelps to Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini to Valerie Solanas. We are the other. We are subhuman. That’s you, me and everyone else that refuses to drink the Kool-aid.
As for the specifics, Adrienne is very coy about pointing to actual examples, but I have no doubt they exist and have seen quite a few. There is a bottomless pit of gibberish about Watson’s freakshow from all ends of the socio-political spectrum, all levels of dignity and civility and messages that range from that of genius to the unintelligible.
For my mind, the prime example of uncivil and unintelligible Watson degrading gibberish is her Encyclopedia Dramatica entry. I fully agree with Adrienne that this kind of personal villification is something the planet would probably have been better off not producing. Where we will have to agree to disagree is whether it is cruel and unnecessary or not. Adrienne seems to believe it is. I am of the opinion that it is not – and that the ultimate responsibility for the creation of that particular web page lies with Watson herself4.
Before you shout me down Adrienne, consider – as vile as that page is, there is really nothing in it that surpasses the vileness of what Watson has said and done herself, or her Watsonistas have. I am sure you have seen more of that than you can stomach, so I won’t recycle examples here, and there are plenty of citations in my previous posts anyway. So regardless of what the intent of the ED page is, the reality is that it is little more than a mirror reflecting Becky’s behaviour back at herself. Each is as vile as the other. Yin and Yang.
As for the bloggers you hint at that push the limits of the personal, yes there are plenty of examples of those around too. You’ve probably seen this one at a guess and may have made veiled reference to it –
Girl, your elevator number backfired on you because after your “marriage” charade at TAM, your failed marriage & you getting fat only made you miss the attention, we have all been there but unlike you I hit the Gym because of the weight my children made me gain, you, on the other hand, could not bear it and went the pundit way.
You are just exploiting your personal failure through a misplaced sense of purpose, the truth is that your personal life is not successful, you cannot bear the idea of having children on your own because you cannot be better than your parents. All of that makes you dump all your need for a purpose onto skepticism.
Harsh? Perhaps. Cruel? Probably. Would I write something like that? No. But undeserved? Absolutely not.
There’s an Australianism for this – what goes around, comes around. Becky is paying the piper for a lifetime of narcissistic selfishness, backstabbing, socially manipulative piggery. You can criticise these types of items that are scattered all over the web on many grounds – but saying it’s undeserved is not one of them.
Becky is an absolute moral and ethical destitute. It is finally all coming back to haunt her. On the sum of all of her behaviour, the very idea of anyone ever needing to apologise to her over anything, anywhere and at any time is beyond absurd – and that goes especially for you.
If anyone needs to apologise, it’s Watson to us – for dragging godlessness and skepticism down into the gutters of divisive gender feminist and victim politics. If she had any decency whatsoever, she would apologise to us, exile herself from the public arena and allow the damage she has wrought to try and heal itself. But this will never happen. No tin-pot wannabe dictator in history has ever admitted being wrong about anything. It is we who always pay the price for their “infallibility” and “rightness”.
So Adrienne, while you torture yourself with considerations for Becky’s “feelings”, I would also like you to conduct a thought experiment. What “feelings” and “considerations” do you think were on Becky’s mind when she –
- gave the talk at the CFI Student Leadership Conference and presented examples of her “rape” mail via visual aids, implied much came from within the community, and without warning or explanation, blended images of Stef McGraw’s blog and personal details into the collage of “hate” as though she were one of the perpetrators – knowing full well Stef was in the audience?
- Or at the same conference, promoted skepticism by stating to an entrapped audience, that had no means of knowing better, that pretty much any woman that attended any skeptic conference was lucky to escape without being sexually assaulted?
- Or when she was deleting private data, sending forged messages and destroying user identities at Randi.org after finding she had elevated account priviliges, and then boasting about it?
- Or this vid of raw snarling desperation – where I have absolutely no idea what she was thinking?
- Or taking a cheap potshot at you in her latest blogged diatribe?
The list goes on. Perhaps, the trickiest of all, what consideration do you think she’d show you if you were all that stood between her and one of her undeserved pay packets? And we haven’t even touched in the issue of large scale racist and sexist demographic slanders and broad brush accusations of rape apologetics and gender treachery at any who pause to question her derangement.
I am perplexed. Adrienne, I am sure there is nothing but the best of intents behind your desire to make some kind of peace here. But it is wasted. For one, it won’t make a skerrick of difference – you will be on her hate list for eternity regardless of what you do, short of absolute submission, conversion and wholesale complicity for future abuses – which I like to assume you have too much dignity for. And second, the assimilate or destroy mentality would reject any peace offering you make anyway.
Really, you sound like too sensible a chick to be losing any sleep over this. Save your pity for those that deserve it. Do what you do well instead – keep on writing. Unapologetically.
1 – I’m getting tired of repeating this, but I keep having to. Watson is not my primary focus – the destruction of the last traces of Enlightenement Freethought is. Watson just happens to be such a complete package of everything that is wrong with secularism that she is a walking, talking reference point – a living, breathing “punch me, I’m stupid” sign, as are the entire Watsonista army.
2 – Yes they are sociopaths too. I know. But they are of the ideologically approved variety, and Becky can play with impunity there.
3 – Though I can count two relatively recent threats from new, new atheists. One a pseudo-historian that did not appreciate my dogging his footsteps for his relentless plagiarism, and the other a godless homeopath that did not like my closed mind. Safe as milk bet that both would be sitting in the Watsonista camp here.
4 – Salivating at the prospect of how the Watsonistas will mis-contextualise and misquote this. Here’s a start “HE SAID WOMEN THAT GET RAPED DESRVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111”. There is no such thing as too cheap a shot with these folks.
October 6, 2011 at 2:15 am
Twitter is evil. Just saying.
Her comments and posts indicate to me that she believes that regardless of Watson’s behavior and of whether she deserves it or not, we should all be above that. Now I don’t necessarily agree with her, as I have known people like Watson (or her character as is apparent to me) and I realize the things they suffer they usually bring upon themselves. I also believe that people do, and should, get what they deserve.
In short, I’m conflicted.
Still I think in her case of apologizing to Watson, right or wrong aside, it’s a devotion to her personal morality, and not necessarily guilt save that of having violated her own principles, that led to it. I admire a devotion to principles, but find it difficult to disagree with much of anything you said here.
October 6, 2011 at 2:23 am
Which is the point I was making – apologise to yourself yes. But Becky, never.
Becky is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Maybe this thought will cross her mind some day, probably when she’s a wrinkly old bag on her death bed and she finally realises its no longer possible to atone. What a lonely time that will be.
October 6, 2011 at 3:15 am
The thing I don’t get is this… Although she may avoid saying something like the “vagina” comment in the future, I don’t see that as any indication that criticism of bad behavior will stop because of hurt feelings. That’s the meat of the discussion anyway, not Watson’s character (even though she is a good example in a lot of respects).
I mean if you fuck up and legitimately hurt someone in the process, as she felt she did, then why not? Explanation? In her position I probably would have done the same thing if only for the benefit of the doubt. It sure as hell wouldn’t happen twice, but I always try to give BOTD even if I don’t particularly like someone.
October 6, 2011 at 2:25 am
Pity is a strong emotion. I suspect Adrienne was feeling it. Perhaps she is thinking: “How sad Rebecca must feel. How confused… and how weak.”
but… I also feel pity for the convicted murderer. This does not mean that I will “forgive” them however.
I am not saying Rebecca’s “crimes” are at all the same as murder… but… I was just pondering the emotion of pity and the concept of forgiveness.
To state a different way: Forgiveness is given when we believe someone has learned their lesson regarding the “rules” they have broken. This concept is driven by the idea that people can admit their mistakes and then change their behavior. If this happens people are often willing to let someone “start over”.
The problem is that Rebecca does not think she has wronged anyone. She is just a self righteous and pompous as ever. How can we forgive her now? It is impossible.
I will feel pity for her but I will not forgive her.
October 6, 2011 at 2:27 am
I will feel pity for her but I will not forgive her.
I’ve more or less said the same several times. Basically, if Becky was a dog, you’d shoot it out of mercy.
October 6, 2011 at 2:38 am
Your best blog yet, Franc, and I have read all of them that I know exist. The first two paragraphs are especially succinct, and sage. And sane. And soothing. But people will want to read it write through to the end, it’s good to the last drop . . .
June 9, 2012 at 6:59 am
Possono fare molto di pi sotto il punto di vista grafico. Il cubo ha fatto cose miigroli.Ormai quando esce un gioco per wii si spera sempre e solo che sia giocabile, io preferisco sempre pensare che sia si giocabile ma che abbia pure una grafica all’altezza del wii, e la maggior parte della roba che esce non all’altezza delle potenzialit di questa console
October 6, 2011 at 4:43 am
Thinblecot: “Your best blog yet, Franc”
That is exactly what I told him when he sent me the preview before it was posted.
I was quite disappointed with Skepticasm’s post “Rebecca Is Not A Bitch”
here is my comment there:
http://skepticasm.wordpress.com/2011/10/04/rebecca-watson-is-not-a-bitch/#comment-215
Where Franc quotes me in this blog, was part of a stream of consciousness instant message where Franc stepped away from the computer for a bit. He came back to a long diatribe about how I felt in regards to the apology.
In the “Rebecca Is Not A Bitch” comment section, Adrienne makes herself a bit clearer, and explains some of the things that led to my confusion. That said, I still feel the same on many of the issues I raised. Franc has covered them here.
The fact that so many strong, articulate, highly intelligent, and non-apologetic women have come forward to speak out regards to Rebecca Watson’s hypocracy and hysterics, have made me incredibly proud to be a part of this group of dissenting opinion.
I have always voiced my opinion in regards to women like Rebecca Watson, and misandry in general in the western culture. I was called a “gender traitor” long before it became a common term. I knew of no other women who not only felt the way I did, but were also willing to voice those opinions. The only people I knew who agreed with my point of view on the sexism issue (towards men) and the silencing of men who have anything to say about misandry, were men themselves.
I would have spoken up on this issue even if I was the only voice without a Y Chromosone, but it has been quite a brilliant experience for me to be in the company of other women who not only feel the way I do, but also do not hesitate to speak their minds. I can thank skepticism and the internet for that, and I am grateful, so when Adrienne seemed to regret being firmly in my camp, I was disheartened. First of all, I have a substantial amount of respect for her. When I found out her age, I was astounded…
I’m on a roll, more to come.
October 6, 2011 at 11:23 am
hypocrisy, not hypocracy
October 6, 2011 at 5:40 am
Once I even apologized to DavidByron, a.k.a. DB, a.k.a. DavidBryon in a past thread here some time ago because I had made a short comment towards him. I did so because I thought that there might be the slightest possibility that it was uncalled for. That doesn’t mean I didn’t later suggest that he is an unemployed asshole with nothing better to do than torment us with his drivel.
Although what one deserves does matter to me, it still boils down to erring on the side of caution. That stands even if it’s something I look back and think, “Why did I do that?” Just the way I was raised perhaps, no real reason beyond that.
Don’t know how relevant that is, or how it parallels with skepticasm’s motivations if at all, but it’s why I don’t view it in quite the same way. Anyhow… enough of that.
October 6, 2011 at 8:17 am
Hi.
I thought my apology might be received this way. I apologized only for the part that was hurtful and unnecessary. I defend everything else I’ve ever said about her, including all of the vitriolic insults in my other posts about her.
I apologized for the part of the comment that was unnecessary and hurtful. It was embarrassing to me that I had overlooked such inconsideration due to the poignancy and hilarity of the blubbering vagina image.
THIS ISN’T ABOUT HER.
I apologized because it bothered me on principle.
I explained the practical side of it so the trolls would stop filling my feed and ruining her career — she’s young, give her a break, unreasonably huge the break she’s demanding may be. It’s no skin off anyone’s nose to refrain from that crap, but it might change her life significantly for the worse, indefinitely.
I made a humanist connection so people wouldn’t think this was about her and some shallow, arbitrary, fleeting crap. It isn’t. This is about PROCESS.
I apologized for Rebecca and for myself. You guys can fuck off for judging how and why I try to make another human being feel better.
Finally, this isn’t about her. This is about process.
PROCESS.
How much she deserves it ignores the integrity of the process. Process is my only concern.
You’re resolving this with emotion and whim, which are arbitrary and unreliable. Try process and see what comes out the other side.
If you don’t know what I’m talking about, go read the Socratic dialogs and get back to me. I don’t have time to teach everyone here a course in logical fallacies. I shouldn’t have to. SKEPTICS.
October 6, 2011 at 8:48 am
Your “fuck off” is accepted. I should not have accused you of acting out of pity. It was pure speculation on my part. I apologize.
I guess I fundamentally disagree with one thing you state. You believe this is not about her. To me, it is about her, at least to some extent.
I do not believe she should be promoted as someone who is a “leader”. We need better leaders than this. Actions that will promote her leaving the scene are appropriate (and shouldn’t we be as rude as she is about this?).
October 6, 2011 at 9:13 am
If you want the discussion to be about her, count me out. I never found her very interesting to begin with. Then again, I’m new here.
I have a vendetta against her. It isn’t personal. It could be anyone up there throwing a tantrum and I’d react the same way.
I’m going to try to keep her off stage as much as possible. It really only requires informing the community and the authorities in charge of podium time of the behavior inconsistent with their goals. That’s why I’m writing.
I have been approached by maybe a dozen “elder skeptics”, some of whom have direct and potent influence over coordination of TAM and in particular who makes it on stage, who concur and tell me to keep writing.
Why the hell they can’t solve this by saying a few words (with many books written already confirming their competence) publicly is for another article on another day.
You want to know something? The bits about Rebecca’s marriage and weight were COMPLETE NEWS TO ME when I came across them a few days ago. I had no idea anyone was posting such horrible personal speculation anywhere online.
I don’t read Skepchick. I don’t follow any of them anywhere. I just got into this community and you guys are a FUCKING MESS it’s clear I’m going to have to clean up at TAMX.
Look for me at the podium. I’ll be the one deconstructing modern feminism and taking names.
October 6, 2011 at 11:10 am
Skepticasm: You’re resolving this with emotion and whim, which are arbitrary and unreliable.
That’s the best veiled insult I’ve had in a long time. Well, one of the points I raise is “evidence or STFU”. You may feel good dropping lines like that, but it looks pretty faith based to me.
go read the Socratic dialogs
Yeah? Want oneupmanship? Go and read Herakleitos’ recovered fragments. Here’s a good one –
I really don’t care about PROCESS. I do care about those that lose themselves in typhos. Seems to me you are wasting yourself with the wrong kind of introspection. Further, you seem to want to make the rest of us feel guilty. If “guilty” equates to thinking Becky is getting no less than she deserves off the anonymous maniacs she’s drawn to herself, then yes I am guilty.
Becky is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The willfully, deliberately stupid deserve no pity. Becky wants to resolve her misery not through happiness, but through relativism – if she makes everyone else as miserable, then by relative standards, things will have improved. This is nihilism. This is slave morality. Any considerations for her feelings are wasted.
As I pointed out – apologise to yourself if you feel you transgressed your own standards. But leave it at that.
October 7, 2011 at 3:45 am
The Apoplexy of Knowledge… wonders Becky.
October 6, 2011 at 3:01 pm
Your brevity lost its wit. Your wit lost its brevity.
“Process, Process, Process”.”Mantra Mantra Mantra”
“Shelter my intellect, Shelter my Intellect, Shelter my intellect”
“From my childhood trauma, From my childhood trauma, From my childhood trauma”
It is not “process” Adrienne, it is you trying so hard to convince us because you can’t convince yourself that your back and forth makes any sense.
You are missing the most important process: Convincing yourself.
Your intellect has the reflex of inhaling your sea of emotions as your child trauma drags you deeper, deeper, deeper. Every flailing limb spells “process process PROCESS”
It’s a sad natural reflex that only kills it faster.
Repeat after me: “I make sense, I make sense, I make sense”
PS
Flag me Watsonista, you are fair game for trolling.
October 6, 2011 at 9:03 am
I do not feel much pity for Rebecca, by the way, outside of what misfortune may have fallen upon her. I feel ashamed for contributing to hurtfulness unnecessarily, but I don’t pretend she’s blameless for the spite she’s getting. I even posted this on a link Jay posted when he found out what the trolls were doing and was PISSED about it:
Look, Jay, I don’t know why this is such a surprise. The unfortunate truth is that Rebecca’s simply not been a very pleasant person to say the least and people are starting to get fed up and stop giving shits about her feelings since she’s so adamantly refused to show respect for others. No, it’s never “necessary” or “nice” to say this kind of thing about someone. But after so many buttons pushed with such a shit-eating grin on her face, I think she deserves it. Sorry, buddy.
(For reference. http://www.facebook.com/#!/jay.novella/posts/121934181236782)
I have since messaged him telling him I was wrong to disagree with him. I didn’t think the linked post was OKAY, but I had no idea many intellectuals were reading it and LAUGHING. When I got a similar response to my post AND reasonable people cheering on the trolls and chastising me for the apology, I realized the problem was much bigger and more pervasive than I’d realized. So I wrote the post.
Note that I put that on Facebook and not on my blog, which is populated exclusively and deliberately by essays on rhetoric. There is a time and place for expression of these kinds of things. I wanted to give Jay an idea of what strangers saw because as a friend who’s been close to her for many years he still thinks of her as whatever sweet and diligent skeptic I keep hearing she used to be, and that he should expect this kind of reaction anytime Rebecca puts forth, well, unintelligible ideas.
Ridicule: It has a time, place, and form, and that’s a two-way street.
October 6, 2011 at 12:46 pm
Ridicule: It has a time, place, and form, and that’s a two-way street.
Ridicule seems a sore point for you. I think that is likely that you have exposed yourself more to ridicule of negativity than positivity and you have a sour taste.
The great tragedy of modern “critique” is that humour has been declared a crime. This is a legacy of postmodernism, relativism, constructivism, post-structuralism and a whole grab bag of other nonsense terms.
All opinions suddenly became equal and valid, and by extension, criticising another’s opinions became tantamount to assault. This has been drilled into us via the education system for nearly 50 years (“there are no losers, we are all winners” etc.). Enter the Dworkins, Farrakhans and Watsons of this world – now with carte blanche to spout nonsense from within a protective cocoon.
You have dismissed ridicule and misinterpreted Jefferson (or perhaps I read more into him). To quote you –
Yes and no. Ridicule is not perhaps for the benefit of your target. It is more for the benefit of the undecided onlookers – to frame the preposterous in its true preposterousness. It IS an important tool. It is an art that is being killed – by professional victims that distort meaning purely for the sake of finding offense and criminalising the satirist.
Therein is the Watsonistas primary attack/defense mechanism.
You confuse me. I no longer have any inkling of what it is you want.
October 12, 2011 at 1:40 pm
[Off to pastebin you go. Don’t really care who you or Liz are – just keep on leaving the fingerprints. Happy to share them with anyone who asks.]
http://pastebin.com/uZXGkQYS
October 12, 2011 at 4:54 pm
DWD – Franc is not a troll, but you are.
You and your alter ego Liz Puller are off the deep end. Please stop commenting here.
October 12, 2011 at 5:08 pm
DWD – your problem (tragedy?) is that there will never be anyone around that thinks you’re as clever as you do. Ever. That must really suck. Playing hit and run shit-slinging from weenie anon accounts, that actually makes you even lamer than the Baboon King. Maybe you could also help us dummies by explaining what sort of reaction we’re supposed to have to this? Because I’m not sure.
October 13, 2011 at 2:01 am
“The great tragedy of modern “critique” is that humour has been declared a crime. This is a legacy of postmodernism, relativism, constructivism, post-structuralism and a whole grab bag of other nonsense terms.”
Well said. There seems to be an absolute dearth of wit in all of this–only sniping, bad snark, and predictable dogma infused rhetoric.
October 13, 2011 at 2:13 am
There seems to be an absolute dearth of wit in all of this–only sniping, bad snark, and predictable dogma infused rhetoric.
Just look at what happened to Dawkins.
October 7, 2011 at 5:13 am
[serial troll gibberish that has been plaguing forums discussing this removed at the suggestion of some folks. If you need to see it, a copy is here pastebin.com/HYF6PpaW]
October 6, 2011 at 10:26 am
well, I was going to continue with my post, but honestly now I’m bored.
October 6, 2011 at 10:59 am
Skepticasm:
“I have been approached by maybe a dozen “elder skeptics”, some of whom have direct and potent influence over coordination of TAM and in particular who makes it on stage, who concur and tell me to keep writing.”
Yes, you should. I may not agree with everything you write (if I did, I would really be bored) but you do have a good grasp of how to engage one to read what you write through to the end, and as I have said previously, you are quite articulate.
More posts full of critical thinking and logic in regards to whom is given a podium in which to speak for the skeptic and athest communities is essential, especially from other women.
These “elder skeptics with influence” you write about should be doing their bit as well. I have found that the women who hold a adversarial opinion to what Rebecca Watson is preaching are invisible to many who wield power in the sceptic realm. Responses seem to be most often withheld when it comes to disagreeing with Gender Feminism and misogyny in scepticism. I can’t speak for Scenter Nectar, but I believe she has had the same experience (please correct me, or clarify, SN). I’ve also seen it with Abbie Smith from ERV. It is not that they are not reading what we write, or that they are dismissing our views because we are women, it is fear which holds them back. We can say precisely the same things as the men, and they will be harshly responded to, and we will not recieve any acknowledgment.
The more women who speak out, the more difficult it will be for them to avoid responding.
Skepticasm:
“I just got into this community and you guys are a FUCKING MESS it’s clear I’m going to have to clean up at TAMX.”
Life is a “fucking mess” my dear, and it does not get any easier. You may want to get used to it.
October 6, 2011 at 11:03 am
correction:
That was meant to be Scented Nectar, not Scenter Nectar. my apologies.
October 6, 2011 at 12:16 pm
The discussion IS about Becky. A chunk of the atheist community has made her and her crap the acid test for membership. She’s the reason for anybody with a functioning mind being ejected from organized atheism, or at least being made to feel persona non grata. Some people feel, rightly or wrongly, that the Watson camp now rule the roost and that rational argument is pointless – they’ve tried it and been shat over. Until they find influential alternative communities (if there are any) they feel powerless and frustrated. Under the circumstances I think they can be forgiven for trying to wound the Beast.
October 6, 2011 at 1:07 pm
Precisely. All great despotisms begin with purges, usually of those annoying “intellectuals”. Much like politics right now is purging itself of science. Yes, this is a purge. I called it as such several years ago when this nonsense began.
October 6, 2011 at 1:46 pm
Just look at Baboon World and how it’s developing. A new Soviet behind a new Iron Curtain. The have lists of prohibited books and even their own gulags.
October 6, 2011 at 1:56 pm
Hey look! There I am. No personal attacks from the Baboon King right????
“John D One of those obtuse MRA assholes; too stupid to tolerate.”
Is this where I get to say someone is a dickhead… haha!
October 6, 2011 at 4:45 pm
An enfant provocateur lobbing grenades into an already volatile group of people. To say it’s all about Watson is to miss the forest through the trees, I think.
The following is personal observation and experience, take it for what it is. I think there have been a series of mounting frustrations and grievances over a long time from the folks who are disenfranchised by politicized atheism (e.g., conservatards, liberturds, gun nuts, and rape apologists). It used to be a sort of unwritten policy of tolerance — smile nod and ignore — but the feminist reaction to the Watson bullshit, the public shaming and so on, seems to have been the proverbial last straw.
Sorry for the babbling in my latest comments, today has been a stupid day. Cheers, -0
October 6, 2011 at 5:09 pm
I don’t know how much more I can spell it out or repeat it – this is not even a feminist issue. It’s not even gender. It is a symptom of a much larger malaise – this is a global rising reactionary neo-puritanism and it is derailing all of secularism. It is the mob usurping the individualist, and its visible in their addiction to spectacle, scapegoating and lynching by mob law. The worst example that confirms this is NOT simply a fem-bot idiocy was the crucifixion of TamTamPamela. This is mob rule, with almost Calvinist, freedom hating undertones.
The comparison to Jacobins made by Solius is quite appropriate, with Myers cast as Robespierre even more so.
October 10, 2011 at 4:51 pm
Reap the whirlwind, Dr. Myers… for soon, it will be upon you.
October 6, 2011 at 12:42 pm
Subscribing…
October 7, 2011 at 3:49 am
It must be said: while, beauty is only skin deep, ugly is all the way to the bone!
October 7, 2011 at 6:59 am
things are getting extremely bizarre with her:
https://twitter.com/#!/iam_adrienne
October 7, 2011 at 7:05 am
Is this stuff real? I notice that all of these tweets are from exactly the same time…. (3 hours ago). I guess I don’t know how twitter works.
October 7, 2011 at 7:08 am
and I think my advice is to not seek therapy on the internet. The Blogosphere is the worst jungle in the world…. jaguars ready to pounce at every turn… trolls… and jerks… and fake lovers.
October 7, 2011 at 7:23 am
no, my fault, I posted before fact-checking. bad skeptic!
She had linked to it herself from Twitter, and that’s where I found it, but a troll set up that Twitter account, however, I read the new comments on her blog first, and she is becoming increasingly bizarre.
She begs for sympathy. Sorry, you are an adult now, Adrienne, life isn’t easy. Grow a thicker skin:
of course PZ had to weign in, since it is about Rebecca, so I’ve linked to his comment, read it and the ones below for clarity.
http://skepticasm.wordpress.com/2011/10/04/rebecca-watson-is-not-a-bitch/#comment-236
October 7, 2011 at 7:45 am
Wow… fun… All I have to do is watch. It is like the Indy 500 highlights… smash!…. smash!!!!… yellow flag!…. red flag!!!
October 7, 2011 at 8:20 am
“ur dum and a bad person, Y PPL HATE ME??!”
October 7, 2011 at 10:05 am
This just another example of the uncivil and unintelligible brand of ridicule that basically achieves little more than justifying the whining of Watsonistas, and giving ridicule a bad name, crippling its legitimate use rhetorically. .
Well done you clown. Very clever. You’re helping everyone aren’t you?
October 7, 2011 at 9:33 am
I was hoping that her confidence and strength were true, and not just a defense mechanism and armour for insecurity, weakness, and pain, but it looks as though I’m wrong.
Too bad, she is quite articulate and smart, she just does not have enough life experience. She is actually asking people to be nice to her.
“I’m new here. I haven’t learned about trolls yet. I’m starting to get the picture with this post. Please give me a break, or better yet some kindly-worded advice.”
“As for the meandering…I’m sorry? I’m trying to learn how to write straight out of my penultimate semester in music school in the south (where they don’t let you read books or write things) while attempting to also not die of pressing/urgent health problems weekly in a city of proportions and culture this small-town girl has never before seen…”
…it might make you back off on the literary criticism while I’m going through this rough time; I need the compassion and don’t mind explaining myself to convince people to be nice.
“…I try to convince people to be nice to me in the context of not having the psychological fortitude to field spite from people I admire in an unfortunate compromised state…”
“I’m trying. Honestly, I want to be honest and diligent. I’m just new and disoriented. Give me a chance.”
I liked her better when she was tough.
She is in for a surprise, she better get a backbone or drop out of the race.
October 7, 2011 at 9:59 am
Jesus, I am an asshole even when I am saying “be nicer to yourself”. Its lose-lose.
October 7, 2011 at 2:34 pm
Now, well, sheesh kabeesh, you’se folks are somewhat familiar with me — I’ve posted here, and at ERV, and at Rhetorical Question, and Skepticblog, et al, but, well … do you folks have any compassion?
I know that’s become a deeply, deeply, problematic word that has been compromised by the thing called Tone Troll, or Concern Troll, but really, folks.
Yes Adrienne’s/Skepticasm’s apologies to Watson are somewhat confusing and problematic, but your hard-core dismissal of her because of that, on such a short fuse … well, shit, it reeks of Watsonista/Pharynugulated shit.
Ya’ll can do better.
October 7, 2011 at 2:45 pm
Yes, I agree some is harsh. But there is always a fine line between what may be perceived as “patronising support” (which would be taken as a worse insult) and saying “be strong” (which implies weakness, also insult). As I said already, Adrienne now just confuses be. Perhaps you should have a look at her comments page where the Baboon King has weighed in like a hyena sensing weakness. This is Adrienne’s can of worms. How do you expect people to respond anyway to what is now a very difficult to understand frame of mind?
October 7, 2011 at 3:01 pm
“As I said already, Adrienne now just confuses be.”
Franc, she is confusing me too. But I do not find that to be sufficient reason to shit on her.
Jesus, man, she’s only 22. I’m not sure how old you are — I’m 55 — but do you remember how innocently inconsistent we could all be at 22 — not to mention having an expressed background of serious abuse?
I think her posts express/exhibit a truly remarkably astute mind for someone of that age, and I think some small amount of leeway should be allowed due to her youth.
“Perhaps you should have a look at her comments page where the Baboon King has weighed in like a hyena sensing weakness.”
C’mon Franc, obviously I have. I was the second, after Barb, to take that piece of shit Myers to task for his comments on The Rhetorical Question.
(And what’s with this new obsecenity Lipuller, or Lezfugger, or WTF?)
“This is Adrienne’s can of worms. How do you expect people to respond anyway to what is now a very difficult to understand frame of mind?”
I cannot answer that question. I just don’t know. It is a wholly legitimate question, but I am befoggled by both that question, and of course Adrienne’s, um, well … I hate to say weakness ’cause I don’t think that’s fair, but maybe I can call it her recanting, or giving in to hostility….
October 7, 2011 at 3:28 pm
John, I’m well aware she is a kid (compared to us old farts). I have also said she is good writer with a sharp mind, and to not let pointless distractions mar that – like excessive self-analysis or paying attention to what vandals like Myers say. And that is the extent of my harshness – “stop torturing yourself with trivia, you have better ways to apply your energy”. On the other hand I do not dictate my readers opinions or tell them where they’re out of bounds (except for the obviously repetitive creationist-style circular derailers). You seem to think that this is a “good thing” in other discussions.
LizPuller is a 4Chan style troll having “lulz” because “she” (and there actually is a high probability it actually is a “she” in this case) is smarter than you. They just did the same kind of attack on Watson herself – http://twitpic.com/6tk7te
October 8, 2011 at 7:00 am
John Greg,
You happen to be important to me, so I feel I should explain myself.
Yes, I am also old enough to be her mother, yes, I was often an insecure and confused mess at 22.
My response to her recent comments on her blog (excluding today’s – which are again different than they were), I stand by. She is quite impressive, articulate, and exceptionally bright, when I found out her age, I was quite surprised.
She comes on strong and tough, and confident, I give her credit and applaud that. I did not get that level of confidence until I was in my 30’s . It is something to be proud of.
I was confused about her apology as many of us were. I asked her to clarify in my original comment here: http://skepticasm.wordpress.com/2011/10/04/rebecca-watson-is-not-a-bitch/#comment-215
After that was when she began to plead for sympathy. I found it to be disingenuous and one of two things, either it was a calculated game that she plays when she feels she is losing her support, or feels out of control and plays it like a race card which has always worked for her, or she honestly thinks that she can have it both ways, be tough and uncompromising when it suits her, and play the victim when it gets tough.
Many of us have had a difficult life. Once one is an adult, that is not a reason to recieve sympathy. If she was younger, and not so sure of herself, and not consistantly trying to prove she is mature and capable, I would have been at her side defending her.
If I were a personal friend, and she was confiding in me her wavering thoughts and sudden insecurity, I would be there to listen.
This is not the case.
I do feel she is trying to have it both ways, and I do not feel sympathy for that. I do not think she deserves to be trolled, I do not think she deserves some of the comments she has received in regards to her relationship with her mother and other personal issues. I also do not think she should have announced those things to the world, she opened herself up for abuse, gave them the ammunition. I am in no way defending their actions, just maing it clear that she provided them with information that should have been known to people she knows and trusts only.
It seems to me that once she received negative feedback from those who she had respect for, she immediately played the sympathy card. She isn’t an idiot, she is exceptionally bright. She knows that playing the victim is easier than defending her actions.
If I am wrong, I still stand by my words, If she wants to be tough, strong, and confident and she wants to speak out on issues that are important to her, she needs to grow a thicker skin. Coddling her is the opposite of what she needs. I don’t agree with anyone going out of their way to deliberately hurt her, but allowing her to get away with suddenly being the weak, young girl who does not know any better whenever she feels vulnerable does her a grave disservice, and a weak, young girl in need of sympathy is the direct antithesis of what her personality strives to prove.
Life isn’t easy. Choose your friends wisely, do not give out information that can easily be used against you, confide in those you trust.
The faster she learns these lessons, the better off she will be.
October 8, 2011 at 7:51 am
Franc and Sasha, thanks for your replies. You have both made some good points.
I must admit to being rather thin-skinned and I think I may be projecting, or sort of wearing Addrienne’s shoes too tight, so to speak. I am conflicted on this, but I will ponder what you’ve both said and try to keep an open mind.
“You happen to be important to me, so I feel I should explain myself. ”
Well, that’s really good of you to say. And it goes both ways. Thank you.
October 8, 2011 at 2:05 pm
Need to correct what I said above – “or tell them where they’re out of bounds”: except when it directly addresses me. I can answer to what I say, but not for others.
October 7, 2011 at 5:04 pm
Hey franc–you RW obsessive.
Here is a link to a ‘radfem’ post that has nothing to do with RW per se, but that indicates one of the tools of propaganda: conflation.
if nothin else, we see this white woman telling us she was raped by her chiropractor, and dragging it out so far that we miss the meat of the issue
” he healed me, when 10 others could not.”
Just a thought…
http://cherryblossomlife.com/2011/09/05/the-trauma-of-trauma-bonding/
October 7, 2011 at 5:25 pm
Seen this “thing” before – it’s batshit insane even by Watsonista standards. Try this for size –
http://cherryblossomlife.com/2011/09/12/white-skin-doesnt-protect-women-from-male-violence/
October 13, 2011 at 2:22 am
Franc, if you’re gonna steal my brain, steal the meat, damn it!
Here is my cherry blossom post that I put up about her–because she called me a rapist when I called her on her racist and man hate shit.
http://pornalysis.wordpress.com/2011/09/19/female-pedophile-found/
The really crazy shit over there though? Is her piece about going to see a rope bondage chiropractor. She goes on and on getting sympathy for her ‘trauma bonding” and then after they all declared she was raped, somewhere embedded in the bullshit is this phrase:
” my back was healed, after ten others could not heal me…”
Fuckin’ psychotic! That post is “Trauma Bonding”
Have a look!
October 7, 2011 at 9:29 pm
But it’s the Japanese! They don’t make mistakes!
October 7, 2011 at 10:05 pm
No they don’t. But neither do pudgy pink Watsonistas that dabble in faux zen chic – because there are no losers, everyone’s a winner ♥♥♥ 🙂 XOXOXO:)♥♥♥.
October 8, 2011 at 1:07 am
So the price for fixing back and neck pain is a 20 minute black-out and a suspected rape? Hell… If I could get rid of my persistent leg pain I would consider this “payment”.
October 8, 2011 at 1:09 am
Stop trolling the nincompoops. They don’t need your help to look stupid.
October 8, 2011 at 1:12 am
Okay… sorry… it was a joke in very bad taste.
October 8, 2011 at 6:01 am
I think it’s funny, John.
October 8, 2011 at 1:37 pm
Okay… sorry… it was a joke in very bad taste.
So was mine. Please, carry on…
October 10, 2011 at 4:55 pm
October 12, 2011 at 2:16 pm
[and you can go to pastebin too – until you learn to be coherent]
http://pastebin.com/C47ca5Ns
October 12, 2011 at 3:40 pm
Liz needs to go back to troll school. For anyone that cares, the ALLCAPS party is here –
http://pastebin.com/YpecZ0r9