What is lost in all the noise surrounding the Watson circus is that none of this is really an argument of girls versus boys. Some of the most vociferous and irrational voices in the Watsonista apologist camp are male1, and conversely, some of the most coherent critics are female (and they are legion).
Similarly, claiming it’s all about misogyny is also a red herring – it’s merely a convenient window for the misandrist blog industry to go into opportunist overdrive (it’s bigger than crassmass), and those that disagree with this point are politely asked to refer to their dictionaries (hint ladies: it has something to do with the word “hatred” which is not the same thing as “faux pas”).
No, what the issues ultimately boil down to are ones that are a girls only affair – the continued argument between gender and equity (or liberal) feminism, and Elevator Guy is just the meat in the sandwich. This subtlety is lost on Watsonistas – I have yet to see even one that acknowledges the dichotomy, or even understands what it is. Around the film that forms near the bottom of the barrel attacking women that dare criticise Watson is gibberish like this –
inside the mind of a gender traitor
… She “doesn’t get along with women”. She watches porn. She calls men pussies as an insult. She gets to be the cool chick. Guys will say she isn’t like other chicks, who act so fucking stupid and girly all the time. Nope, she is different. She isn’t always whining or talking about boring girly crap like jewelery or babies. The gender traitor usually bonds with men over some typically masculine hobby like video games, guns, violent movies, drinking, etc. She gets to be an honorary dude, as long as she shrugs off sexism and helps dudes feel better about themselves. That is her job inside the group of friends…2
Blah, blah fucking blah. No point even responding3. In any case, dissent never sees the light of day on these blogs (heresy y’know? Not censorship, greater good etc.), but one gender traitor pretty much nails it all elsewhere –
I think the writer of the inside-the-gender-traitor blog is tying her (I assume it’s a her, but it could be a man, I didn’t check for sure) own mind in the hopelessly confused logic knots of her own agenda. No, she has no insights into the people she describes as traitors–her description is her own fictive construct and she’s just using it to smear and label people who don’t agree with some of the things she says. The article reads very like a spoiled two year old stamping their foot when it doesn’t continue getting the preferences and indulgences it always got before.
Echoes my observations. The Watsonistas, especially Watson herself, are self-absorbed to the point of narcissism and have no capacity to empathise outside of their tiny ideological shoe box in any way whatsoever. They are just like fickle, spoiled children living in a convenience store reality.
The mother of all gender traitors is, to the aware of course, Christina Hoff Sommers who coined the terms gender feminism, equity feminism and possibly even the first to use the term victim feminism4. It is worth reading her extended description of gender feminism from her preface to her arch-heresy Who Stole Feminism?: How Women Have Betrayed Women –
American feminism is currently dominated by a group of women who seek to persuade the public that American women are not the free creatures we think we are. The leaders and theorists of the women’s movement believe that our society is best described as a patriarchy, a “male hegemony,” a “sex/gender system” in which the dominant gender works to keep women cowering and submissive. The feminists who hold this divisive view of our social and political reality believe we are in a gender war, and they are eager to disseminate stories of atrocity that are designed to alert women to their plight. The “gender feminists” (as I shall call them) believe that all our institutions, from the state to the family to the grade schools, perpetuate male dominance. Believing that women are virtually under siege, gender feminists naturally seek recruits to their side of the gender war. They seek support. They seek vindication. They seek ammunition.
Not everyone, including many women who consider themselves feminists, is convinced that contemporary American women live in an oppressive “male hegemony.” To confound the skeptics and persuade the undecided, the gender feminists are constantly on the lookout for proof, for the smoking gun, the telling fact that will drive home to the public how profoundly the system is rigged against women. To rally women to their cause, it is not enough to remind us that many brutal and selfish men harm women. They must persuade us that the system itself sanctions male brutality. They must convince us that the oppression of women, sustained from generation to generation, is a structural feature of our society.
It reads like a résumé for all of the shrieking hysterics, both female and male, that have tried, rather successfully, to catastrophise this nonsense to the point where it threatens the stability of the entire atheist and skeptic movements. If it happens that the movements get irreparably damaged or destroyed in the process, who cares? These are spoiled children smashing their toys against a wall in a hyperventilating tantrum. They’re not even remotely interested in consequences.
Of most interest here is the concept of the quest for the smoking gun, which ultimately, is all that the mysterious Elevator Guy is. Whether he is real, a fabrication or even PZ Myers himself is irrelevant. He is a symbol that has been elevated to the status of gender feminist icon, an accessible, sensational image of all that is evil and corrupt, a tawdry facsimile of the mythical serpent in the Garden of Eden. And who needs proof anyway when you have belief? The mere act of questioning the veracity of the story is the number one misogynist cardinal sin anyone can commit. Which makes this admin post on Randi.org (and discussed here) so utterly delectable –
Is there any evidence at all his guy was at the skeptics conference, as opposed to just hanging out at the bar of the hotel he was staying at?
It seems to me Rebecca is trying to have it both ways, upset because she assumes he heard her talk and then denies the guy was part of any conversation at the bar.
And Rebecca was banned from this very forum because she didn’t have the social skills to understand when she was crossing the line, oh the irony!
It is reassuring that there are still pockets left where rationality prevails over drama, and emotional blackmail has no traction.
Hoff Sommers’ deconstruction of this madness is precise and deserves far wider dissemination5 than it has. It is a crucial piece of work and is not something that could have the same value or punch were it from a mere male. My only quibble with Hoff Sommers is a minor one and in no way detracts from my respect for her or her scholarship. It is more an issue to do with Occam’s Razor than disagreement anyway, and it is this – her gender feminism thesis has a very close overlap with Nietzsche’s ruminations on slave morality formed way back in the dim, dark days before even the first Suffragette raised her voice, and while the current dramas are very definitely gender focussed, I maintain that they are merely a symptom of a much wider disease that is taking hold within the godless and skeptic communites – the New, New Atheism: an ascendant, more general neo-puritanism with a passion for moral panics, scapegoating and similar lynch mob style behaviour, cf. earlier musings on hypersensitivity about language, militant, guilt inducing veganism, the godless Temperance Union, especially the TamTamPamela crucifixion, and an awful lot more besides. This style of idiocy, including Elevatorgate, has all the hallmarks of Nietzsche’s ideas of slave revolt and there are some choice quotes to be found in his writings –
“Nowadays it is not the man in need of art, but the slave who determines general views: in which capacity he naturally has to label all his circumstances with deceptive names in order to be able to live.” — The Greek State
“There is nothing more fearful than a barbaric slave-class which has learnt to regard its existence as an injustice and is preparing to take revenge not just for itself but for all generations.” — The Birth of Tragedy
Not only do the slaves in uprising wish to control our thoughts, words and actions, they hunger too for revenge for what they perceive to be an eternity of injustice perpetrated on them. The whole mindset is bound by the same nihilism as the passive religions – it is all life denying, not life affirming; regressive and not progressive; it seeks to drag others down rather than elevate oneself up. It is all a yawning blackhole of self-loathing that wants to suck all around it into the same mass of negation. If anything, it is all retrograde anti-humanism – grind us all into paste and pour us out in new uniform molds.
And of course it is inevitable that the concept of slave as used by Nietzsche will fly straight over the heads of the Watsonistas, and habit being what it is, they will default to the absolute basest and worst interpretation. To which I say – “I don’t really give a fuck. Maybe if you occassionally read stuff that wasn’t limited to deranged confirmation bias propaganda, you’d have a better grip on the world and reality in general.”
I doubt very much that Hoff Sommers is unaware of her parallels to Nietzsche. Perhaps she has very valid reasons of her own to make gender feminism a distinct concept from slave morality. Or perhaps she knew she was already pushing the envelope against the fem-bot Taliban further than any of her sisters had done previously, and invoking the N. man would have been a step too far and opened the gates to all manner of clueless Nazi accusations. Would really like to ask her for her thoughts on this. Maybe I’ll bump into her in an elevator sometime…
Related: The Watson Circus and Reflections On The Stanford Prison Experiment
Special Bonus Nietzsche for Gollum
This extract just struck me as the perfect response for the “don’t be a dick” sermon on the mount –
– But let us return: the problem of the other origin of ‘good’, of good as thought up by the man of ressentiment, demands its solution. – There is nothing strange about the fact that lambs bear a grudge towards large birds of prey: but that is no reason to blame the large birds of prey for carrying off the little lambs. And if the lambs say to each other, ‘These birds of prey are evil; and whoever is least like a bird of prey and most like its opposite, a lamb, – is good, isn’t he?’, then there is no reason to raise objections to this setting-up of an ideal beyond the fact that the birds of prey will view it somewhat derisively, and will perhaps say, ‘We don’t bear any grudge at all towards these good lambs, in fact we love them, nothing is tastier than a tender lamb.’ – It is just as absurd to ask strength not to express itself as strength, not to be a desire to overthrow, crush, become master, to be a thirst for enemies, resistance and triumphs, as it is to ask weakness to express itself as strength.
— On the Genealogy of Morality: A Polemic
1 – Most embarrassing of a sorry bunch has been PZ Myers when he’s ventured out of the safety of Fortress Pharyngula. Without the Dutch courage of his trained baboon army behind him to “me too!” in chorus, his outbursts have been quite cringe worthy – zero substance, as always, and mostly nonsense post hoc straw-clutching and spatterings of ad himinems to belittle masculinity, even of the females. Typical dreck –
and this issue got blown up by lunatics who felt their manhood threatened
– some of the milder stuff, which you’re supposed to digest purely on the grounds that his brain is bigger than yours (apparently), so just shut up.
2 – To be fair, it has to be noted that Skeptifem is from the “dumber than dogshit” end of the apologist blogging spectrum. Though, of course, that does nothing to stop Skepchick from interviewing her as though she is worth taking seriously. Is anyone surprised? No. Not anymore.
3 – In fact, the more you observe these blogs and the commentary on them, the more you realise how similar they are to those of the creationists they despise. They are not interested in discussion, they are just “me too!” junkies and prohibit any dissent of any kind.
4 – The cesspit of lies certainly thinks so. The following url redirects to Hoff Sommers –
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Victim_feminism
5 – For the benefit of Becky, please translate “dissemination” as “cum shot”.
August 7, 2011 at 10:29 pm
A very interesting post. Some commentators have utterly disgraced themselves over this matter and have become so entrenched in their radfem dogma that they have rendered themselves utterly impervious to reason; no different from self-identifying “religious skeptics”.
August 7, 2011 at 10:38 pm
Yep, looks like we have let a rat in the barrel. Now, where did I put those ferrets…
August 7, 2011 at 10:51 pm
I just wish their arguments were as tasty as tender lamb. It would definitely make all of it easier to swallow.
August 8, 2011 at 12:16 am
That “gender traitor” quote: where else do we hear sentiment like that? The only example I can think of is racial supremacists calling non-racists “race traitors”.
This tomboy-basher also was defending rigid, traditional gender roles–how sexist. Other “feminists” practically look on being a girly-girl as a personal failing, which is also sexist. I have this crazy idealistic view that people should be however they’re comfortable whether it’s masculine or feminine without it being politicized…
August 8, 2011 at 2:53 am
Homophobe!
/Little Britain
August 8, 2011 at 9:51 am
sbc, I agree. I hear that garbage all of the time from people of my own race who think that I’m a “traitor” to them because I don’t listen to Indian music and I hate Indian foods. I am only Indian by race and never once did I swear some kind of allegiance to like all of the things that most Indian people tend to blindly associate with their race, as if they were pre-programmed to feel that way. It’s as if they all came off of an assembly line. If I were born Japanese, it doesn’t mean that I’m supposed to like teriyaki chicken.
They also use this way of thinking to manipulate people of the same race into their way of thinking. Sometimes, it’s even a reaction to racism (though the reaction may be racist).
August 8, 2011 at 12:15 pm
Yes, Raby, not to mention that people fall into a “tone” as soon as they hear you’re from another country, with an attitude that one is not quite sure how to interpret: is it true curiosity? (If it is, why then do they start talking to you as if they know more than you do?) Is it condescension? Is it narrow-minded stereotyping?
As soon as I tell people here that I am Italian, they start doing the Italian shtick — gesticulating and speaking with a stupid accent (“Isn’t that what Italians do?” – barf!), talking about how much they like Tuscany (clearly assuming that I give a fuck), and the wine (which I don’t drink and don’t like), and so on.
I never know whether to be “nice” or tell them to go stick a pizza up where the sun don’t shine, nice and hot, with some nice wine, if they like it so much.
I end up being “nice”, but my patience is being tested, and I don’t know if I’ll keep it up.
August 12, 2011 at 11:33 pm
Given enough time in any group of people, “outsiders” will be cast out, leaving a homogeneous tribe with one or more “chiefs” dictating the rules. Just look at Pharyngula.
It seems to me that there aren’t many people who can rise above that level of thinking, and that absolutely nobody is immune to it.
August 12, 2011 at 11:42 pm
@Raimondo, Man when I think Italians, I think of some Bronx badass who uses the word “fuck” as a comma. ;p
Anyway… I suspect it’s merely someone attempting to be funny. If you’re nice, you can feign a chuckle, otherwise you can tell them to knock that shit off. If it isn’t funny to you, then why should you pretend, eh?
August 19, 2011 at 7:09 am
Overlord wrote:
“If it isn’t funny to you, then why should you pretend, eh?”
Perfectly valid and good point. Thank you.
August 8, 2011 at 11:25 am
Well, who are the targets of the hatred here? There’s a reason for the “white nigger” tag. Yes they’re racists (and sexists) – it’s such a ubiquitous fact it no longer needs repeating. As for this Skeptifem thing, I doubt very much as she sits down to slap away at her keyboard and spray her monitor with spittle that any of the “gender traitors” in her fantasyland are coloured chicks either.
You sound like one of them crazy cosmopolites.
August 8, 2011 at 4:55 am
Great post Franc. Thanks for that.
August 8, 2011 at 9:53 am
As sbc mentions, “gender traitor” does sound very much like the kind of thing that the KKK or the Aryan Nations might say, with “race” in place of “gender”. It’s an unmistakable sign of intolerance and dogmatism.
August 8, 2011 at 9:54 am
Here’s a pic for your collection Franc,

August 8, 2011 at 11:06 am
Yeah, but “radical” is an overused and misused word and not really applicable to the gender Taliban anyway – they are peddling a brand of conservative / regressive neo-puritanism that borders on religion with its spectacle and vengeance theatrics. You have to remember Lydia Lunch has also been branded a “radical feminist”, so in that respect a Watsonista relation is an insult to her. She however is smart enough to make the cosmopolite distinction – “I am a humanist, not a feminist. There’s a big difference.”
August 9, 2011 at 1:35 am
[…] Slaves, Nihilists And Gender Feminists (greylining.wordpress.com) […]
August 9, 2011 at 4:18 pm
There is hope. Intelligent people exist:
August 11, 2011 at 12:57 am
[…] fall into. No, what I think we are witnessing instead is two distinct microcosms with an inherent slave mentality that have evolved in parallel in two separate petri dishes. They then discovered each other and lo! […]
August 12, 2011 at 9:19 am
I don’t know if Sommers till agrees with her original idea of “gender” vs “equity” feminism.
The problem with it is that going by the definition she uses (“the system is rigged against women”) it is hard to see why any feminist is not a gender feminist. Or to put it another way if you didn’t believe that the system is rigged against women, if you on the contrary believed that the system isn’t rigged either way or that it was rigged against men, why on earth would you call yourself a feminism at all?
To call yourself a feminist is to equate two completely different definitions and claim they are both the same. The first definition is simply a belief in equality of the sexes, the second an advocate for women’s rights. To be a feminist is to think both are the same, which is only true if you accept the gender feminist concept as laid down by Sommers.
Only if you believe that all pushes towards equality are necessarily pushes for more rights for women are these definitions the same. And that can only be true if the system is completely rigged against women. Therefore if there’s any meaning to the phrase “equity feminism” at all, then it is a feminist who is just figuring out that feminism itself (ie gender feminism) is not about equality at all, and as a result is being pushed to the edge of the movement before leaving it.
August 12, 2011 at 10:48 am
David Byron — Protecting your own rights is good; taking away others’ rights is bad. Get it?
August 12, 2011 at 12:10 pm
DB, two points –
1) This is why I think Nietzsche nailed this stupidity earlier, and with more clarity, than Hoff Sommers (not to detract from her own efforts), and
2) Any movement that artificially erects walls, then bitches about the fact that there are walls, is a nonsense and is doomed to failure. And that’s precisely what this style of Watsonista wedge politicking does.
I stated way back I am a cosmopolite – I find these artificial pigeon holes to be meaningless and the cause of all of this grief in the first place.
August 13, 2011 at 4:02 am
DB, as for my earlier embarrassing comment, I was already in a bad mood re: personal issues. Nothing personal against you, though it definitely came across that way, and “sorry” is all I can really say. So — sorry about that. Anyway… *red face*
—
To be perfectly honest, I can’t tell exactly what you’re trying to say… I interpret it as saying that the distinction between gender and equity feminism is silly and useless. I don’t think so, and a good example might be the difference between Open Source and Free Software: they’re the same philosophy, differing only in the way they choose to act on it.
If only for clarity, it’s good to have terminology that makes the distinction at least a little clearer.
(I only have a vague understanding of Nietzsche, but it seems that in those terms, equity feminism is an example of master morality and gender, slave. That’s maybe what you’re hitting at in point 1, franc, and if so, I agree.)
August 13, 2011 at 11:42 am
Essentially, yes. In my view I see it as a conflict between the autonomous mammal (master) and the insect hive collective (slave). These are all different perspectives of the same thing. The bad people here are the individuals, the heroes are the gang. The gang wants to purge those that don’t want to be in the gang or are deemed unworthy of membership. It is “social” as opposed to “ethnic” cleansing. Don’t even need the “crypto-” prefix for “fascism” anymore. Run it by the “Characteristics of Fascism” checklist –
http://home.earthlink.net/~eldonenew/fascism.htm
August 19, 2011 at 7:14 am
Given all the talk about Nietzsche, I thought I’d share this:
August 19, 2011 at 1:20 pm
Nietzsche gives me a hard-on. There, that’s flame ammo in perpetuity.
August 19, 2011 at 1:16 pm
I usually divided feminism between people who wanted equality and female supremacists (oh the links I find here–was just looking at commentary about how all PIV sex is bad and men should disappear.). They are two completely different things but are put under the same label. (The author of “the Surrendered Wife”, and probably Sarah Palin, also consider themselves feminist.) The word “feminist” is used to describe such a broad range of people it’s practically meaningless.
I don’t think that all pushes toward equality are pushes for women’s rights necessarily b/c sexism affects men (machoness, homophobia, etc) and there are double standards that affect either gender. Some people (among both men’s and women’s rights) cling to their beliefs in a religious fashion and waste their time arguing over who has it worse. What is the point in arguing about male v female victims of rape or domestic abuse for instance? As if it’s acceptable that it happens to anyone.
August 19, 2011 at 1:27 pm
“I am a citizen of the world” — Diogenes of Sinope.
Translation: “Fuck your pigeon holes”.
Telling me I don’t consider you (not you specifically sbc) an equal is evidence you don’t believe you are equal.
The stupidity is insurmountable.
August 16, 2011 at 11:44 pm
“The whole mindset is bound by the same nihilism as the passive religions – it is all life denying, not life affirming; regressive and not progressive; it seeks to drag others down rather than elevate oneself up. It is all a yawning blackhole of self-loathing that wants to suck all around it into the same mass of negation. If anything, it is all retrograde anti-humanism – grind us all into paste and pour us out in new uniform molds.”
This to me is the most disturbing part. Unless we obey, voluntarily obey no less, life is somehow deeply unsatisfying. How in the world could atheists and skeptics fall so easily for this bullshit?
I almost feel sorry for PZ. From now on, he will have to second-guess his posts (He’s always been edgy when it comes to sex — part of his former charm, no?).
And he’s worried about being censored? When will this madness stop?
August 17, 2011 at 12:21 am
It will stop when people can revert to the basics and start calling bullshit for bullshit again, instead of just nodding and agreeing because they are told they have to. Have you seen anything of substance come from any Watsonista anywhere? They are witchdoctors scaring children by explaining noises beyond the light of the fire as demons. And nothing more.
August 17, 2011 at 1:12 pm
[…] Slaves, Nihilists And Gender Feminists (greylining.wordpress.com) […]
September 16, 2011 at 11:05 am
[…] from The Naked Emperor and his horde of baboons in defense of the Watsonistas and their wallowing slave mentality never varies. It consists entirely of highly personal insult, diminutive attacks on genital size […]
October 6, 2011 at 4:44 am
I loved this post. Alot. I blame nerd/geekness for the establishment of the slave mentality. Happy to finally be the cool kids at the back of the bus, former bullied turns values on their heads and becomes the new bully.
October 20, 2011 at 1:39 am
Please define what you mean by “nerd/geekness”. I am autistic.
October 26, 2011 at 8:43 pm
[…] is the Dependence Effect based economy of the gender feminist / slave moralist blogging world. Nonsense feeding back to itself and generating more nonsense. Were that this damage […]
September 28, 2012 at 3:59 pm
Given the large numbers of the toilet slaves, not just across the US but in spots both in the UK and Australia .. And the reluctance of the wider atheist/skeptic communities to see female solipsism and male emasculation/pussybegging and call it out as exactly that.. what do you reckon now Franc? I have claimed that this is some female-favouring psychological shit in both genders that predisposes them to this behaviour.. sorta akin to how HADD predisposes us to super-naturalistic thinking.
Having seen the disgusting Merkan popular culture for many years now, I strongly feel that the baboons are just a sampling of whats out there in the wider Merkan world.
IMO, even the core Resistance (slimepit) has fallen short of understanding whats going on. There is never a single factor that explains a phenomenon like this..but check this out.
Podcast (The Reasoning Show) – The World of Woman – Rich Zubaty & Sue Hindmarsh